Happy Thursday, and welcome back to The Best & The Brightest. Earlier today, I took a drive with the voluble New Hampshire governor Chris Sununu. Our conversation ran the gamut from his candid thoughts on the state of the Republican party and its political fixations, the rogues gallery of G.O.P. presidential primary contenders, and whether the popular governor plans to throw his hat in the ring, himself. It was a rollicking and enlightening chat—I hope you enjoy, and thanks for reading.

Tara

Sununu told me that there’s a “61 percent chance” he runs for president—his words—and 39 percent chance that he just plays the role of kingmaker in New Hampshire, where he has some of the highest approval ratings in the country. In a long and candid conversation, he told me that he wants to wait until his legislature is out of session to make a decision. Unlike most pundits and operatives who argue for the value of early entry, Sununu thinks that he can make up his mind by mid-June. Indeed, Sununu has been criticized for a Hamletesque quality, one in which he appears to signal alternatively that he is running and then isn’t. But he is a contemplative guy. He told me there’s only a 50 percent chance he runs for re-election in New Hampshire, where he’s on his fourth consecutive two-year term, more than his dad, former governor John Sununu, and any other Republican in New Hampshire, ever.

Meanwhile, he remains a force in the race, formally or otherwise. On Friday, he is scheduled to meet with Ron DeSantis, who will be chatting with more than 50 state legislators. Sununu said he gives all of the G.O.P. candidates advice when they come to town. He let me know that he thought it was going to be challenging for DeSantis to explain his six-week abortion ban to both Republicans and Democrats in the state, a point he underscored by making a throat-slitting gesture while driving me around in his red ’66 Mustang convertible. We also chatted about his positions on immigration, education, and who can beat Trump. This conversation has been edited and condensed for clarity.

Chris Sununu: I don’t know, I don’t really think like that. I can tell you I’ve met a lot of those folks. I’m not so worried about that because most of the large donors, and even the small donors—people that understand politics—understand that Trump likely cannot win in November of ’24. So who’s really going to take him on? Obviously DeSantis is the leading choice right now, today. That hasn’t been going great for him, and so they’ve all kind of picked up the phone—and some of them called me.

I’ve picked up the phone, and they said, “Look, you know how to get people excited, you clearly know how to govern, you clearly know how to get stuff done. Winning in November is not gonna be a problem for you. So what’s your path? How are we going to get there?” If we were to explore this, I have no doubt that the money will be there, there’s no question.

There are murmurs that donors are frustrated with you for not running for Senate when Mitch McConnell begged you to. Instead the G.O.P. got Don Bolduc as its candidate, and Democrat Maggie Hassan won re-election. People with big money like Miriam Adelson are apparently annoyed. How do you win those people back?

Well, sure, nationally, I’m sure a lot of people were, but it doesn’t affect me in terms of going forward for president. I’m sure there are a lot of people who were frustrated that I wouldn’t run for the U.S. Senate. I mean, we could relive that story. But running for president is a totally different ball game, so if I decided to run for president, I have no doubt there’d be a lot of donors behind me.

So you think you can win these people back?

Oh, I haven’t lost them. Being frustrated that I didn’t run for the Senate doesn’t mean they’re not necessarily with me. It means, Oh man, we wish you would run for Senate. Like, I hear that all the time.

It also might mean they don’t want to give you money to run for president in case you back out.

That’s why I’m not doing an exploratory committee. When I decide I’m in, I’m one hundred percent in, and that’s why we’ve raised a little money into this 501(c)4 to create a little structure in all of that. The bulk of the fundraising opportunity would come after we got in, because it’s like saying, Okay, I’m in and I’m committed and I’m gonna give 120 percent and I’m gonna see this thing through. It would be different if I ran for the Senate and then backed out. So as soon as I make up my mind, I’ll let everybody know.

Speaking of the 501(c)4—aptly titled “Live Free or Die,”—you can’t use that money for your campaign, right?

That’s right. The 501(c)4, I think, is really a terrific vehicle. It wasn’t originally designed for the presidential campaign, it was designed because I’m trying to get independents back on the Republican team—I’m trying to get young, disenfranchised Republicans that have walked away from the party back on to the team. And so I try to be a more positive, inspirational voice: Hey, the Republican Party is not defined by Donald Trump. Or, we shouldn’t be. You don’t have to be disenfranchised to get on a school board or run for office, and I’ve been traveling the country doing a lot of that, which I get very excited about.

You clearly have a message of pushing back against big government conservatism. You called Mike Pence your best friend in politics. He believes many of the same things as you—why don’t you just support him?

He’s great. During our toughest time in this country, in the pandemic, it was Pence as vice president that understood that governors could design their own paths in uncertain times better than the federal government could, and it was Pence that really drove the initiatives out of the White House every day on those calls. “Govs, what do you need? We’re gonna give you this CARES Act money, we’re gonna give you the authority to design your own path. What deals do you need from us?”

Does his pro-life position concern you at all?

Well, I don’t agree with him on that, but I agree with a lot of people on different issues. So I’m not per se backing him. I’m not backing anybody right now.

How strongly do you feel about being pro-choice?

I feel strongly enough to know that it is a terrible political issue for Republicans on a national stage. Pro-life is a losing issue. I’m a states’ rights guy, and Dobbs said states will make their own decisions, so that’s the future of this: States are gonna make their own path, and let’s appreciate that California’s gonna be different than Mississippi. That’s just the way it’s gonna be.

So when we get on a national stage, and Republicans say We’re gonna ban abortions here or here or here, pick your week, it’s a losing argument. I think Republicans have this wonderful product, but we were terrible with messaging that pro-life, pro-choice, doesn’t define us as Republicans—limited government does, local control, low taxes, individual responsibility, freedoms. That’s at the core of what all of us as Republicans can agree on, and those are the things we should be championing to get back those independents and those young Republicans who have walked away from us.

How do you explain that to a bunch of evangelicals in Iowa?

You know what percentage of people actually vote in the Iowa caucus?

I don’t know.

17 percent.

But they’re all pretty evangelical.

So while ten candidates go after that 17 percent, I’ll be going in and getting the other 80 percent excited about being part of the process. We did some polling in Iowa, and we found that when we asked more moderate Republicans, or folks that hadn’t participated, Why don’t you go to the caucus? Why don’t you guys vote? Because I’m from a state where we have well over 50 percent voter participation in our primary sometimes, right? Why is it at 17 percent? And you know what they said? We’re not invited, we’re not part of that evangelical group, we believe in it, but we’re rarely invited to it. Young people aren’t invited to it.

So while all the candidates go after that 17 percent, I’ll be over here getting 80,000 votes out of the 1 million people who typically don’t participate.

Well, he’s a lot better than Trump, let’s put it that way.

What do you think about DeSantis on a personal level?

I don’t wanna judge anybody.

Why not? He’s asking for a lot of power. I think we’re allowed to.

Well, let’s start with the professional. He has a great background in Washington. He actually understands how the system works. I give him credit as governor. I always love governors, right? They have to be on top of things. I think our politics differ a little bit, but fundamentally I think our politics probably very much align. He believes in conservative values, he hates taxes, he wants to be very pro-business.

Except for Disney…

Well, that’s a different issue that’s more of an individual liberty thing that I have challenged him on a little bit. I get that he was trying to make a bit of a political stunt out of that, and I wouldn’t do that. I don’t care what your politics are, a private business is a private business and you gotta respect that.

What about flying migrants to Martha’s Vineyard? Would you ever do something like that?

That’s not my style, but the border crisis is so out of control. While I wouldn’t do anything like that, I do understand. I think a lot of folks are trying to do anything they can to wave a flag to say, this is not just a problem, this is a crisis of unprecedented proportions that’s affecting so much of our country with drugs, cartels. Cartels are basically bringing everybody across the border, let’s understand that. Then you have the sex trafficking, the human injustices that are happening. It’s really, really bad. So while I would never do anything like that…

Would you ever separate migrant children from their parents as a deterrent?

Well not as a deterrent, but understand that, look, if you break the law today, right, you’re driving down the road with your kids in the car, and you get pulled over for drunk driving. You get separated from your children, right? So I’m just saying when you break the law there, there’s a process there.

But some of these people are asylum seekers.

Wasn’t this happening under Obama?

I believe so.

It’s not just a Republican or Trump thing or whatever it is. They’re not asylum seekers. Asylum seekers are very different; political refugees are very, very different from people that are just running across the border. Seeking asylum, that’s more of a political refugee, those are folks that are being given the opportunity to walk into our country to be part of the system. I’m a big believer that the answer is a secure border wall and immigration reform that involves a big, easy-access door so the best and the brightest in the world can come to America.

What about day laborers?

You know what I’m saying—so the criminals and the cartels and the human traffickers and the drugs are kept out.

My people came over as day laborers from Sicily.

Do you think day laborers aren’t part of the best and the brightest? I would challenge you on that. I think they’re great.

Well, even with the immigration system under Biden you have to prove that you’re exceptional to get entry into this country, and that often means college degrees or certain talents.

It’s a disaster. You’ve got to change the whole system. The whole immigration system is messed up: We have 30 million people that are here undocumented, right? So you gotta find a process for them. No one’s deporting 30 million people, that’s insane. Then you need to secure the wall on the border because of the cartels, the drugs and the human trafficking, and then you need an immigration system.

Would you finish Trump’s big beautiful wall?

Oh, I think you have to secure the border, absolutely. I have no problem building a wall.

What do you think Clarence Thomas secretly receiving six-figure gifts from billionaire Harlan Crow? Would you tolerate something like that from someone in your own administration?

I would say that it shows that the Supreme Court probably needs to create a system of transparency. Whatever that system is, they need to create it so it’s transparent and if they want to allow their members to take those sorts of gifts, okay, just make it reportable. But that system didn’t exist and never has. It probably should.

I don’t know, maybe. I’m not running for vice president, that’s for sure. But if somebody wanted me to help them out with their team, I might consider it. My biggest challenge in running is I just don’t like Washington that much. Maybe you need a little bit of a disruptor to go down to D.C., to shake things up a little. I respect people down there. I just don’t like the place. So, you know, if there was a role where I could really be a proactive solution-builder and get stuff done, I would consider that. But that’s not my goal right now.

You told Jen Psaki the other day that you knew everyone in the audience at the CNN town hall, and that they were all Trump supporters. Only one person in the focus groups at the end said that they would vote for Trump. Do you actually know them personally?

Sure, I knew a whole bunch of them. Trump people got to give out a whole bunch of the tickets. I don't know what percentage it was.

His actual campaign got to give out tickets?

I don’t know. [Sununu’s communications director Ben Vihstadt: “CNN had the state party send out the registration link.”] I could tell you the names of them, they are all strong activists in the party.

Who is your dream candidate for the top of the ticket?

I don’t have one.

Not even your best friend Mike Pence?

Mike and I are very good friends, but I meant that politically. Politically, he was one of the best friends New Hampshire had, because he let New Hampshire design their own system, sure.

They’re all friends though—Tim Scott’s a good friend, and Nikki’s a good friend. I love Asa.

You always name-drop Glenn Youngkin. Can you please explain that to me?

Glenn’s a great guy: super smart, came onto the scene, knew how to connect with people. He won that campaign not because he was Glenn Youngkin with a lot of money, but because he said, I’m gonna understand that parents come first. He understood that parents matter, that individuals matter, not the government. And I loved it. I said, finally, Glenn, you’re finally saying what New Hampshire has been doing for the last 200 years. I mean, that’s our model of success. He’s gotta get stuff done there of course—I mean, I don’t wanna talk about his record, I don’t know much about his record in Virginia, other than that he seems to be doing well.

You have said you want someone who will take on Trump.

Everybody does. Everyone who isn’t with Trump wants someone to take on Trump.

Chris Christie’s willing to do it, why not back him?

Chris is a great friend. I think Chris wants to take Trump on on the debate stage. We’ve all heard that story. I don’t know if Chris has it. He’s run before and it didn't work. He wasn't very successful the first time. I just don't know how successful he would be this time, so that would be a hesitation.

Who do you think will actually take Trump on?

I guess we're gonna find out come November, December—this will be winnowed down to three or four candidates.

But who would really stand up to Trump, like really stand up to him and give and take the punch?

I don’t know. I mean, obviously Chris is willing to take him on, but, you know, give a punch, take a punch [for the sake of fighting], or taking him on so that they can really have the chops to win the nomination. It remains to be seen whether Ron can. He hasn’t gotten in the race, so he might be able to do it. I know I’d be able to do it. I think Nikki will be tough.

She doesn’t sound like it now.

Nobody's gone on the stage yet, no one’s really even shown colors, one on one with him.

But they’ve had their opportunities.

I will say this, I think every candidate needs to take him on. If one or two candidates are just the ones hitting at Trump, it’s not going to work. Every single candidate has a responsibility to push back on this Trump narrative that appears to define the Republicans but it really doesn’t, which is that he was successful when he really wasn’t. He says he’s a fighter, but he lost that fight against Paul Ryan and others who didn’t want to secure it. In politics, there’s not this idea, Well I think it’s not my fault they didn’t let me do it or it’s not my fault it's their fault.

There’s no blame in politics. Either you win or you lose. He lost when it came to draining the swamp, he lost when it came to securing the border, he lost when it came to health care reform, he lost when he said he was gonna be fiscally disciplined. He didn’t even try on some of that stuff. So there’s a really bad record there, why would we wanna repeat that?

And by the way, most importantly, he cannot win in November. So why would we all get behind an individual who mathematically cannot win in November? Sorry, I get really frustrated.

You basically announce every time you’re on TV that you’re going to run for president. What’s the wait?

I don’t believe in being coy. I’m strongly thinking about it. I very well may do it. I’ll probably decide by mid-June.

Do you think staying on the sidelines, waiting until mid June is actually gonna help you?

It’s not about helping me. I have other responsibilities, like I said, to the state, to my family, to making sure that all these other boxes are checked. It’s not just about me.

But Ron DeSantis is going to announce soon.

He’s kind of gone through his process and he’s checked his boxes.

He can do both, why can’t you?

My budget is almost done, my legislature is almost out. My legislature isn’t out yet, that’s probably why [DeSantis] can announce a little earlier.

Do you think time is on your side?

Oh, very much so—if everything starts falling apart for folks. Timing is everything in politics. When you peak, when you make a splash, when you have a big, you know, Wow who’s this guy? moment. Something that gets people excited and shows them something new. I think I can do that.

I think some of my strengths would be on a debate stage, if I chose to get on the stage. One-on-one, you know, I’m a little different, and I stand out, and it comes off a little better, and it’s received very well, so there’s an opportunity there to flash this fall. But you don’t wanna flash too early, necessarily. If I got in now, it would just be to get the logistics lined up so that we can get on that stage to, you know, give Fox some good ratings during those debates.

You could just announce with me, if you’d like.

Sorry. It’s not going to happen.